Podcast: LSJ Just Chat Episode 7

Transcript of Podcast – LSJ Just Chat Episode 7
Between Claire Chaffey (CC), Nicole Evans (NE) and Jake Fing (JF)
Date Transcribed – 17 August 2023

LISTEN TO THE WHOLE PODCAST HERE

This episode of Just Chat is supported by Law Inform. If you have a practicing certificate in New South Wales, you have until 31 March to complete your mandatory 10 CPD units and the best place to do it is with our new and improved platform. We have over 25 workshops, hot topic discussions and masterclasses delivered in the format that suits you best. Family Lawyers won’t want to miss a live webinar on dispute resolution events in the Family Court of Australia and the Federal Circuit Court of Australia. Hosted by Senior Registrar Anne-Marie Rice on Tuesday, 16 March. Learn more at LawInform.com.au. It has never been so easy to complete your CPD.

CC: My name is Claire Chaffey and you’re listening to Just Chat. The podcast where we talk to those making and shaping the Law. No politics. No bias. Just chat.

Nicole Evans and Jake Fing are proud members of the legal profession and the LGBTQI plus community. Nicole is Principal Director of Nicole Evans Lawyers in Sydney and a strong advocate for her clients. She has particular expertise in criminal and Family Law cases involving allegations of indecent and sexual assault, domestic violence and same sex parenting matters. Nicole is also the author of Lesbians and the Law, a guidebook for Australian families. Away from the Law,Nicole is an avid cook who has appeared on Come Dine With Me and MasterChef series 1.

Jake is a proud Gamilaraay man from Moree in New South Wales. He is a single father who has just completed a role with Ashurst and is shortly commencing as a Solicitor with Legal Aid. Jake has had a passion for social justice and policies since his early high school years. Since relocating to Sydney to complete his Arts Law degree, Jake has worked with the New South Wales Government and sat on the Board of a number of not-for-profit organisations. Jake believes we can be better humans to each other by being open, accepting and helping others understand our differences. Just a warning to our listeners, this interview was recorded on a new table at the Law Society of New South Wales that happens to be very squeaky. We didn’t have any WD-40 on hand so unfortunately, you’ll hear a few squeaks in the first few minutes of this recording.

So Jake and Nicole, thank you both so much for coming into the Law Society today. Look, I think we might as well jump straight in. Anyone who has ever been to a gay dinner party knows that everyone has to tell their coming out story, so I would absolutely love to start there. Jake, tell me about you because you grew up in a little town called Moree, which for anyone who doesn’t know is a small country town, cotton country, northern New South Wales?

JF: Yes, northwest New South Wales.

CC: Tell me about your upbringing in Moree.

JF: I had a very quiet upbringing compared to a lot of people. So I’m an Aboriginal man through my Mum and Dad. I lived with Mum for a number of years and then we moved in with Dad. A lot of people were really taken aback because my Mum and Dad were together, they just didn’t live together. So I went to the Catholic School there, the private school for a few years until I was in Year 7 and then I moved. I had a few difficulties at school. So I decided to jump ship from Moree and move to Inverell, an hour and a half up the road, and live with my Auntie for a few months. But then I came back and I went into the public school system. Then finished Year 12 and then made the big move down to Sydney.

CC: So in terms of your coming out, when did that happen for you?

JF: So I moved down to Sydney in 2013. I completed an entry program to get into UNSW, into the Law degree there. Then I didn’t come out until the day before Mardi Gras in 2018. So I was engaged to a female for a number of years and her and I, we’re very much best friends and we did everything together and then we also did some other activities together, and lo and behold we had a baby on the way. We did. So our beautiful little girl she was born in 2014. Then it came to 2017 and something just went wrong along the way and we decided to separate, and it was a few months after that I came out. For me, coming out was telling my Mum, that was the person who, I guess, validated everything I said. Like a lot of my friends knew or they suspected along the way. I sat down one night and I was just in tears and my Mum thought I had done something, like had a broken the Law or something like that. She said, “What’s wrong darling, tell me?” She said, “Is it a girl? Have you gotten a girl pregnant?” I said, “Well no Mum, that’s the thing, I don’t think I ever will get a girl pregnant again”, and she’s, “Oh, okay”. So we just talked about it for a few hours. That for me was coming out. Then from that moment on if anyone asked, “I’m gay, I’ve got a partner, I don’t have a partner”.

CC: Yes amazing. What did that feel like for you?

JF: I’d heard for a lot of years that that kind of thing was liberating. I’d always thought, “No, I won’t feel like that. I’m going to be pushed into the closet constantly”. But I think, I agree, when I did come out it was just this huge weight lifted off my shoulders and I felt like I could be myself. I didn’t have to hide anymore. It was hard enough growing up being an Aboriginal man, facing stigma because of my identity, but then throwing, being gay into the mix, it’s like, “Wow, I fit another stereotype now”. It was the best feeling, it was, and I’ve never looked back.

NE: Yes, it is, there’s no hiding for me. My story is actually quite similar to Jake’s actually. So I grew up in the Blue Mountains. It was a very quiet upbringing. I don’t think I ever saw a gay person until I was 16 when my parents took us furniture shopping in Newtown and I saw two men holding hands. I remember saying to my parents at the time, “Why are they holding hands?” They said, “Well they’re gay”. I said, “What does that mean?” I hadn’t seen it on TV and we didn’t know any gay people. So that was sort of my first exposure to it. I think because my upbringing was so quiet, when I turned 18, I couldn’t wait to move into the city. My Dad and Step-Mum lived in North Sydney at the time so we spent weekends down there. But I went to the University at UTS, so I moved into the city. Absolutely loved it. Loved going out at the time, through Uni. But I didn’t come out until I was about 24. So my first job as a Paralegal and Junior Lawyer I was straight still. When I did realise I was gay, I decided to take a break from the Law and that’s when I went into legal recruitment for a couple of years. So at the time I think that was a good opportunity for me to work on the personal side life, not professional. I’d studied so hard at University for so long and then sort of got straight into my first job that I didn’t really have any time for myself. So my coming out story is also very similar to Jake’s that telling my Mum was the biggest deal for me. She was and is the most important person for me growing up but she was very open and accepting and sort of said, “Oh, I already know”, I think she already had a suspicion. I hadn’t had a boyfriend for a while so I think people were starting to wonder what was going on. Actually, when I went into legal recruitment, an employer actually asked me in my interview, “Did I have a boyfriend?”

CC: Interesting question.

NE: Which I was a bit shocked at and I wondered why they were asking. I didn’t look stereotypical gay at the time, I think. In answering the question, I thought, “Well shall I say I do or should I say I’ve just separated from one or I’m looking or …”, I didn’t want to tell them at the time and the fact that they asked me was quite concerning for me.

CC: Yes, that strikes me as a very inappropriate question. So I supposed that coming out on a personal level is one thing but I’d be really interested to understand your experiences of coming out in the workplace and whether that’s something that you have had to do or whether you’ve really just been able to be yourself and not sort of make any grand pronouncements about how you identify or have to explain yourself. Nicole, what’s been your experience?

NE: Yes, I think in the beginning I did have to come out. So every time I was with, working in a new Law firm or working closely with other people in a company, at some point in the conversation it did come up in terms of your home life, relationships. It was like a constant coming out every time you met someone new. Each time it was still very difficult. You still have concerns that people will judge you and change the way they feel about you but over time the concern did get less and less and I became more comfortable with who I am, my sexuality, and eventually I wrote a book about it. So everybody knows now, so I don’t have to come out anymore, which is great.

CC: Jake, how about you, what’s your experience been in the workplace?

JF: I think it has been quite positive. I mean I, or having a child, every time I’d mention that I had her, everyone would be, “Oh okay, that’s a bit of a shock”. So they were more shocked to learn that I’d had a child and then they’d ask the question, “Oh, how did that happen?” I’d be like, “Well, I wasn’t always gay, so it happened in that point”. “Oh, okay, no worries”. But yes, I guess moving to Sydney, I think it was a lot more eye opening than living in Moree, I mean in Moree there weren’t many gay people, well not many people who were openly proud of their sexuality or I guess flaunted it to the world, flaunt of a better term. When I moved to Sydney, I found so many people were really out and proud and that was in jobs that I didn’t work in, that wasn’t the legal profession, so a few bars and stuff. Then when I started working at a Law firm, I found a lot of the people that I was working with they all identified as being LGBT. So I think for me that made it a little bit easier and I didn’t have, I guess the same experience and a lot of people asking me, “Why don’t you have a girlfriend? Why don’t you have this?” So I think for me most of my experience has been positive. I mean you get the odd person every now and then is like, “Oh, really, is that you?” I’m like, “Yep, that’s me, if you don’t like it, move on, bye”.

CC: Is that generally how you respond?

JF:  Yes, it’s got to the point where I just don’t care anymore.

CC: Nicole, how about you, have you ever experienced any negativity or do you feel that it’s been detrimental to your career in any way?

NE: No, I think most of my experiences like Jake’s have been quite positive. I think as a woman, when I first started in the Law firms that I did they were quite male dominated, so it was hard just being a woman in that environment. Then throwing in gay, I suppose it made it a little bit easier because I was just that sort of next level different, so just get used to it. I have to say I’ve been really lucky the responses I’ve always had have been generally positive.

CC: Do you think, we’re at the point now where it’s three years post marriage equality in Australia, I think that the time of the postal vote happening was a pretty awful time for most people in the community, do you feel that things have changed since then, in terms of social and community attitudes and views? Do you think that there has been further evolution, or do you think we’re still facing some challenges there?

NE: I think there has been progression. I’ve got two children and at the time of the marriage equality vote, it was a difficult time as a parent of children in the same sex family trying to shield them from all the hate propaganda on TV and on poster boards at bus stops and stuff at school. So that was pretty hard and trying to talk to them very positively about their family structure so that if anyone at school said anything hurtful or negative to them that they could respond in a positive way. Since then I feel there’s been more social acceptance of same sex families. Certainly as a parent, my children have always felt generally included in their school environment. I haven’t had any negative feedback from other parents or issues where parents won’t send their kids to my house because we’re gay or anything like that. It has always been generally okay, but I think certainly since the Law has recognised same sex marriage, society’s view have progressed. I think there’s still a bit of way to go but there certainly has been progression.

CC: I just want to, before I throw to Jake on that one, I just want to pick up on the point about your children, how did they go during that period and I suppose how did you deal with that and were they picking up things that they were hearing or seeing at school or otherwise?
NE: Yes, they certainly did. So every night when we were having dinner, conversations would come up and I would often initiate the conversation to say, “How was school?” Ads would come on TV to say to them, “How are you feeling about this? Has anyone said anything to you that you feel upset about? Are the teachers talking about it?” The feedback was, “Yes, people were talking about it”. Some children had said that their parents would be voting “no”. They didn’t believe that same sex couple should be able to legally marry, that it was just about a man and a woman. So it was every night having conversations with them to reassure them that their family structure was okay, that there was nothing wrong with it and that they were loved, and we had a very, have a very happy home environment, but watching your children go through that process is pretty devastating.

CC: Jake, what about you?

JF: Well when the postal vote was happening that was sort of at the end of my relationship with, like my straight relationship, and I mean Samara’s Mum is gay as well, so Samara has two gay parents. I remember I hadn’t had the conversation with Samara about my sexual identity, like my orientation, but her Mum was very open and she commenced a new relationship with a woman. Samara was, she wasn’t upset or anything, but it was different to what she was used to. One of the children she went to school with had said to her, “Oh, your Mum can’t be in a relationship with another girl. That’s not right. My Mum and Dad told me that that’s not right”, and very similar that that conversation started. So I said, “Oh well darling, that’s not the case. Mum is allowed to be with whoever she wants to be with and that’s not your friend’s parent’s place to say that”, and I said, “Well what would you think if Dad was in a relationship with another man?” “Oh, I don’t mind, I don’t mind Dad if that’s what makes you happy then that makes you happy”. I’m like, “Okay”. I think the postal vote was a really horrible time and I very much agree, there have been, we have progressed a little bit but you still get a lot of people who tend to be quite vocal that we shouldn’t have the same rights as everyone else. It is quite sad and like our children to have to listen to that. When we like to think we’re like every other parent, we love our children the exact same we’d do anything for them just like a straight couple would, so why should we be treated any different.

CC: Nicole, you set up your own Law firm in the Sydney CBD about two years ago.

NE: Yes.

CC: So, tell me about that because I know that a big focus of your firm is to deal with same sex issues and a lot around parenting. So I guess I would love to know your reasoning for going out on your own and how that experience has been, and then I would love to sort of talk about your approach to clients.

NE: So I was working in a mid-tier Law firm for about ten years doing Family and Criminal Law. I was a Partner there and look it’s a great firm and I had great relationships with all the Lawyers there but I felt that it was time for me to do my own thing. I did want to do more around the area of same sex Family Law cases. I’d written book and I also wanted to spend a little bit more time with my children, so I thought having my own Law firm would give me more flexibility around spending more time with the kids and around what areas of Law I wanted to pursue.

CC: And has it worked out that way?

NE: Sometimes the balance gets a bit skewed. But yes, I do get to spend a lot more time with the kids working from home and I love the work that I do.

CC: Excellent. In terms of the issues around your same sex clients, what are some of the bread and butter things that you’re dealing with?

NE: We do a lot of Donor Agreements. We do Parenting Orders when same sex couples separate. We do Parenting Agreements. Divorces now, obviously, since marriage equality has been legislated. One of the emerging disputes now is ownership of embryos, when two women separate and ownership of the donated sperm.

CC: Yes, tell us more about that. Is the Law around those sorts of cases still quite mirky at the moment?

NE: There’s no precedent cases in Australia so it’s a very new and emerging area of Law. The only precedent cases that you can really look to overseas are involving heterosexual couples where the genetic material is a material of both parties and obviously, in same sex cases, you’re dealing with embryos that are only the genetic material. For instance, in a same sex lesbian relationship, the eggs are donated by one party and then fertilised by the donor’s sperm, so the non-genetic party still has legal ownership rights over the embryos even though it’s not their genetic material, so the question becomes now if they separate, who has ownership of those embryos.

CC: Yes, it’s complex.

NE: Very complex.

CC: Do you find that many of these agreements around donors, etc. are being formed without formal agreements?

NE: Absolutely. A lot of people download them off the internet, which is very dangerous.

CC: Not advisable?

NE: Not advisable and they also think they’re legally binding, which they are not.

CC: Where do you even start in trying to unravel something like that, where there’s an invalid agreement in place or no formal agreement at all?

NE: I mean with children the Family Court is always of the view that the children have a right to have a meaningful relationship with both parents and I think in same sex cases, and this is an issue that is constantly arising now, there’s more than two parents, so the Law is, particularly last year since the High Court donor case, trying to deal with cases where there’s two legal parents, another biological parent and their partner, so there could be four parents involved in this child’s life but only one or two listed on a birth certificate, and one or two legal parents, so the complexities around dealing with those types of applications to the Court are becoming more and more common. Experts are then being drawn in to work out the children’s attachment to each of these different parents and who they should live with, and those types of cases are becoming more common.

CC: Yes. I read today that, I think it was in California, three men in a relationship with each other have become the first throuple to have all of their names listed on their children’s birth certificate.

NE: Yes, very big news.

CC: So I suppose it’s a constantly evolving interesting area of Law to work in.

NE: It is. I don’t think that will happen anytime soon in Australia I’d have to say.

CC: Jake, you’re currently at Ashurst, working as a Paralegal in the pro bono section, but I know you’ve got, you’re going to Legal Aid shortly and will be working in the Family Division. Tell me about your journey in Law and where that began, why you wanted to be a Lawyer and where you want to end up?

JF: So my Dad’s a Police Officer, so I’ve always had that exposure to justice within a community. Being Aboriginal I saw a lot of things within the community that weren’t right, that still aren’t right, and that was particularly targeting people who were from a First Nations’ background, things like that. So I always wanted to be a Forensic Scientist, that’s what I wanted to do.

NE: I wanted to be a Doctor.

CC: I wanted to be a Vet.

JF: I always wanted to be a Forensic Scientist. Loved the TV shows, watching Bones and Criminal Minds.

CC: And CSI.

JF: Yes, CSI, all of that, and so I did legal studies at school and also science. I went well in both, but then I thought, “Oh, no I might become a Lawyer instead, that might be easier”.

NE: Don’t you regret that now?

JF: Yes, I do sometimes. So when I enrolled at Uni I started work in a large corporate firm and I found that type of work wasn’t very exciting for me. So I was doing financial services recovery, you know bankrupting people and things like that. It just wasn’t for me. So then I took a break from that and I started at Legal Aid a few months later, and that was doing a rotation through all of the different practice areas. That was what I really liked, that social justice type of work. I guess that’s what I fell in love with. Then after like splitting up from my little one’s Mum, we unfortunately went through Family Law, like the Family Court, and that was really, really eye opening. I think for me, it wasn’t about being a gay Dad, it was just being a Dad in general. A lot of things I saw in the particular Court and list I was in, it just didn’t favour me as a Dad, it didn’t. Like I don’t want to believe that the Family Law favours a Mum over a Dad, but in my eyes at that particular time it did. I guess that ignited a fire in me that I wanted to go into Family Law. I want to work with Dads who are in the same position as me, who I guess, I’ve heard recently, it’s called the missing middle, the people who aren’t entitled to Legal Aid but they can’t afford to get their own legal representation. So sort of helping that little niche area and that’s what I wanted to do. Then of course Covid hit, so grad roles they were few and far between unless you had applied two years before, all of that. So I did a little bit of work in a few different places and then I started at Ashurst as a Paralegal, so I’ve been doing that for a few months. But as you said, I start at Legal Aid next month, in the Family Division and I can’t wait, I’m so excited to learn how to do that style of work, that style of representation. But ultimately, I would love to go to the bar. I’ve always seen myself more as an advocate, being able to stand up and fight for someone’s rights. I guess, in the Family Court you can do that more being a Solicitor, please correct me if I’m wrong Nicole.

NE: Not in the Sydney list, it’s very litigious, everyone brief’s Counsel.

JF: Yes. So, yes, I’d like to become an advocate but ultimately, I’d like to be appointed to the bench. I’ve always told myself I’m going to be the first Aboriginal person appointed as the Chief Justice of the High Court, so that’s my goal.

NE: Go for it.

CC: Guys, you’ve heard it here first, Justice Jake Fing.

JF: Chief Justice Jake Fing.

CC: Sorry, Chief Justice Jake Fing coming in a few years’ time.

NE:I can’t wait to appear before you.

JF: Oh, I think everyone will have fun.

CC: Jake, I just wanted to touch in your experience of being in a large Law firm. You know we have heard horror stories in the past of minorities and LGBTQI people within these firms having bad experiences, and I know that often pertains to older practitioners who may have had a different experience to the generations coming through now. But it seems to me that there has been a concerted push from, especially the large and mid-tier firms too, I guess to really create safe workspaces and inclusive and diverse workspaces. Has that been your experience at Ashurst?

JF: Definitely, definitely. I was lucky in the sense that the person who recruited me also identified, so he’s a queer man, and him and I had known each other for few years and he was very protective. He’s also a First Nations man as well. So he was very protective of my identity as an Aboriginal man and also my identity as a gay man. So I was in a sense shielded when I first went in there but after I started and was talking to everyone, I just thought it was the best environment. I was lucky, I didn’t have the commercial side of things, so I worked with the pro bono team and that’s more the sexy area of Law that I like. Everyone has just been so accommodating. No one has questioned my identity if I’ve offered the information freely, that I have a partner, I’m in a same sex relationship, everyone’s just taken and they’ve take it with a grain of salt, it doesn’t affect how they view me in any way. My experience at Ashurst has been really positive. I don’t know if that will always be the case wherever I end up, but at Ashurst they definitely, being gay is not an issue, being part of the LGBT community is not an issue, we welcome that diversity.

CC: Nicole, you obviously run your own firm but you’ve got…

NE: I’m the boss so everyone has to be nice to me.

CC:I suppose that that’s a clear advantage that you have. What sort of things do you do in your firm to make sure that you’re fostering a really diverse and inclusive workplace, for everyone, no matter who they are or how they identify?

NE: Initially, I mean look, I only decided two years ago, and it was just me starting so we were pretty diverse when it was just me. We’ve now got five Lawyers, another two coming on board in the next month, so one of them is a man, I was told that I had to be gender diverse because we’re plural women, so I’ve now hired a man. But look, having an open and inclusive workplace where people can talk about not just professional matters but personal matters if they come and they feel comfortable talking about anything. I think people respect honesty and integrity and if you can foster that environment people will feel inclusive and able to communicate what’s going on for them in their lives and any concerns that they may have.

CC: Do you think there is more that the profession as a whole needs to do, whether that be across Solicitors, Barristers, the Judiciary, is there more that can be done, or do you think that we’re in a pretty good spot?

NE:I think there’s always areas for improvement. I won’t single out any particular organisations. Look, I think the larger Law firms they definitively have their LGBTQUI groups and I think people having that resource at work does make it easier for them, they’ve got those resources that are accessible. In my experience, it’s probably the small to mid-tier firms that don’t have those open inclusive groups that might need a little bit more education and training. But look, I certainly think they’ve come along way.

JF:I think, in terms of us as members of the LGBT community, going back to what I said before, we’re no different, the fact that I crawl into bed at night and it’s next to a man, I don’t practice Law any differently to someone who another man who crawls into bed with a woman. I like to think, we went to Uni just like everyone else. We studied. We did the hard yards. We did our Graduate Diplomas and all that to get our Practicing Certificate, so we’re still the same. But unfortunately, not everyone agrees with that. No everyone sees it that way. But I also think, as being proud gay people, we can provide a bit of a different lens, so particularly in your work with same sex couples, we give a bit of a different lens to LGBTQI people who are going through those legal issues. Even though those issues may be very similar to heterosexual people, we know what it’s like to be part of this community. We know what’s it like to walk outside and face the stigma. But I do think there’s ways to go. Hopefully, we’ll see a very different change within our lifetime.

NE: Yes, I got that a lot with clients. I mean they will say that they’ve come to me because they don’t want to have to explain the dynamics of the particular relationships that they have to a straight person. It’s hard enough going through the process and through the Family Court and they want to work with someone who does understand the unique dynamics that you would have with a birth mother or a non-birth mother, have a known donor, whether they’re Dad or not, just understanding those complexities of, a lot of people say to me, “I know that you’ve gone through a similar thing in your life. You’ve had children. You understand what I’m going through”, so they often really value that, they take comfort from that.

CC: Nicole, there’s two things I want to ask you about. One, you’ve a written a book.

NE: Yes.

CC: Tell us about that, how did that come about and how can we get a hold of it?

NE: Yes, so I think it was around 2008 or 2009, my partner and I decided we wanted to have children. As a Family Lawyer I started to research obviously ways of having children and the legalities around it. At the time we weren’t allowed to have two parents listed, two mothers listed on a birth certificate. Fortunately, when my partner was pregnant with our daughter, the Law was changed in that process, so I was able to be listed as the other mother on the birth certificate. But what I found in going through that process and then unfortunately we separated. I then got pregnant and had a child on my own using the same donor sperm, so I’d had the experience of having a child with a partner and doing it on my own and being a Lawyer. So I’d learnt a lot about how the process worked, the legalities around it and I decided that because of the limited information out there that I was probably well placed to write a book. So it took me a couple of years as a single parent with two little kids, it was pretty hard. There’s a lot of late nights and weekends and the Law constantly changed as I was writing it which was great but very frustrating, so every time I finished a chapter I had to go back and start again because I did it state by state it also made it a little bit more complex. So that got published and released, I think it was about 2017 or 2018. It’s been great. Sold lots of copies of it. I’ve done lots of other media interviews. I think publishing a book like that you are seen as an expert in that area and because a lot of the cases I do in that area I certainly now understand not only the personal aspect but the complexities of the Law around it.

CC: Good on you for writing a book on such a complex subject raising two small children, hats off to you. Look, I also have to mention that you have been on MasterChef.

NE: Yes.

JF: Oh, wonderful.

CC: Series one from what I understand.

NE: Yes, I was on series one with Julie and Po.

CC: Tell us about that, how did that come about?

NE: Yes, look it was a great experience. I used to watch the UK version of MasterChef. I love cooking. My Dad used to be chef and my Mum is a very good cook. After watching that show I saw an ad for it coming to Australia and I thought I’d love to give it a go. So I auditioned and made it through. I got into the top 50 and we were then sent a hotel in Sydney for a week, to sort of whizzle down to the top 20. I think it was about Wednesday when they told us that we’d have to go and live in a hotel or a house for three months and have no contact with the outside world, which is not what I expected. So unfortunately, I had to leave the show and I had to go back to my job as a Lawyer. But look, it was a really fun experience and I would love to have progressed in it but unfortunately the realities of life prevented me from doing that.

CC: What’s your specialty, what do you love to cook the most?

NE: I love to cook seafood, pastas, risottos.

JF: Yum, can you move in with me?

CC: When are we coming over?

JF: Yes.

NE:I was also on Come Dine With Me.

CC: How did it go?

NE: So we did five dinner parties over five nights. That was actually quite funny because they obviously, it’s five people in the group and each night you go to someone else’s house for dinner. So they obviously throw very different personalities into the mix, so obviously I was the gay person and they put someone else in the group who was quite religious.

CC: Wow, what could possibly go wrong?

NE: It ended up in a few disagreements. I was going to hell apparently.

CC: Wow.

JF: Geez.

CC: They do it deliberately though don’t they to try to get fireworks.

JF: To be a drama.

NE: But that was fun, it was fun experience. Something different from being a Lawyer.

JF: Yes.

CC: There you go Jake, something maybe to get on your CV before you hit the bench.

JF: Definitely, MasterChef.

CC: Jake and Nicole, it’s been such a pleasure chatting to you both today. Thank you so much for coming in.

NE: Thank you.

JF: Thank you.

CC: You have been listening to LSJ’s Just Chat. My guest today were Nicole Evans and Jake Fing. Just Chat is a production of the Law Society of New South Wales. It is recorded and produced by Francisco Silver with music by Brookes Kit. For more episodes, visit LSJ.com.au.