Law Society Journal of NSW interviews Nicole Evans, along with Brett McGrath and Magistrate Imad Abdul-Karim on breaking barriers in the law
On being the queer in the law
Nicole Evans is the Managing Director of Barker Evans with expertise in criminal and family law, including specialising in same-sex parenting matters. In 2017, Nicole published Lesbians in the Law, a book for same-sex couples navigating the laws of parenthood in Australia. She reveals the changing landscape for gay lawyers and how she built a steady client base through trust, marketing, and a splash of television fame.
You started a boutique law firm and also specialise in certain area of family law, particularly same-sex family law. How did you reach out and get clients? What’s that process like of going out on your own?
I had built up a very good client referral practice. I was a partner at another firm that I had worked at for about 10 years. I had a good reputation with my clients and the results I had achieved. So, when I first started my firm, a lot of clients came with me. I get a lot of other clients through word-of-mouth, referrals, barristers, judges, accountants. and other lawyers. My referral base was just organic. The growth of the firm, fortunately, has been organic as well. It is only now that we have just started doing some marketing for the firm. I get a lo of clients through my book as well; they find me through the website that is linked to that.
Tell me about writing Lesbians in the law.
When my partner and I were trying to have kids in around 2009, I realised that there wasn’t a lot of information available to same-sex families relating to donors. And I thought, because I was a family lawyer myself, it was a good position for me to write a book about it. I started the process of writing the book. My kids were quite small at that point, so it took me a long time to write it. I started the process of writing the book. My kids were quite small at that point, so it took me a long time to write it. And as I was writing it, the laws kept changing. I would finish a chapter and then I’d keep having to go back and revise and rewrite. A lot of what I was writing about was done state by state. Every time the state changes legislation, I’d have to go back and rewrite. There was also a lot of interviewing for the book, talking with people I know who had had children in different ways.
It sounds like it was really a mix of bringing your personal and professional experience.
It was. I went through this process with my partner, sitting in the front row. I am a non-birth mother to my daughter, who’s now 14 and birth mother to my son, who is now 12. So, I have gone through the parenting process in two different ways. In my work at that time as a director of a law firm, I also found there was a lack of understanding around the legal aspects of gay and lesbian relationships and parenting rights. And I thought that put me in in a unique position to be able to talk about my experience and give practical tips as well as legal tips.
In the time since your book, has the law continued to evolve for same-sex families?
As I was writing it, marriage equality still hadn’t come into effect. I think it was about six months after I published Lesbians in the Law that marriage equality passed [in December 2017, following the plebiscite, which overwhelmingly voted to change the Marriage Act 1961 I always knew it would happen and it was great to see. So obviously, there’s more recognition and understanding in the family court now for same-sex-families. I think the structure of families has changed and evolved. That includes acknowledging that some children have more than two parents, even though birth certificates only show legally that children have two parents. But the court now acknowledges that there are important people involved in children’s lives. There could be a biological parent who is not a legal parent, as one example. Things have definitely had to adjust to the changing ways in which people are having families.
What do you think is still the biggest legal misconception concerning same-sex families? Is it a harder or smoother process than most people might think?
I think there is still misunderstanding around parental rights for same-sex families. I still have a lot of same-sex families coming to me, particularly non-birth mothers not understanding whether they have legal rights; so, this means children born out of their de facto relationships. A lot of them still think thay have to adopt the child that they have had with their partner, but I think there is now increasing awareness around those rights. Another example is if you have used a known donor and the questions of whether they have rights in the family court. The children have rights, but the parents have responsibilities. Children have a right to have a meaningful relationship with all their parents, not just their birth parents.
You mentioned earlier that you are starting to do more marketing of your firm. Is that soft skill or lateral skill training something that you have had to teach yourself? Or do you have support with it?
It’s a bit of both. I am a little self-taught and we have also engaged companies to assist us. We are also using a little bit of AI. As a resource, it certainly helps us with writing articles or preparing social media posts. It really can be very useful. I know that in family law, a lot of family lawyers are starting to use AI in ways like submission writing, but I think that is an area where everyone just needs to be a little bit careful. To always make sure everything’s been checked over very carefully.
You’ve been appeared on Law Society podcasts like Just Chat and Lawfully Explained but you also have been interviewed n ABC and in other media. Is this a useful marketing tool for our practice? Or to be break the barrier between the legal world and the general community.
I think it’s an important thing to do because I think a lot of people are still not aware of a lot of information around same-sex parenting, including surrogacy donor rights and donor agreements. I think it is good to have someone who, having been through the process myself and working in this area, I can bring an understanding of situations that a lot of other lawyers and the community are not seeing everyday. I also think it is an opportunity to explain the ways that law has already caught up to changing social structures.
Have you seen those changing social structures playing out? say with the growth in Pride events for the profession?
Absolutely. I mean, when I first started as a paralegal, I didn’t know anyone else that was gay working in the law. And even when I published my book, again, it was still a bit of taboo subject, and not something you would have discussed, really in your firm, or with other colleagues. Now, I know a lot of gay lawyers. There are so many firms now doing diversity programs, inclusion programs, gay networking evetns, Pride events and more, particularly for Mardi Gras. It is something now that is very much accepted and encouraged in terms of bringing your whole self to work. It is not something that you need to hide anymore.
What did you find the hardest and the most rewarding thing about writing on ever-evolving laws?
Firstly, I think probably the most challenging thing was putting myself out there in a very real way. Throughout the book, I have talked about some situations that I have dealt with in my life having gone through that process. And I think when you do that you are always worried about what people might think or getting negative feedback. Not everyone is accepting of who you are. But I had to be prepared to out myself out here and just try to be open and honest. The most rewarding thing would be being able to help people by putting the information out there. That is something that I did not have when I went through the process. I am really happy knowing that, through the book, there are now couples who are trying to have children and can now get access to the information that they need.
Are there any cases that have stayed with you?
There is one story in my book that concerns a same-sex couple and took place before marriage equality. One of the mothers in this couple passed away, and the other partner had a horrific time dealing with the estate because they weren’t married. It was just awful for them to have to go through something like that. It would not happen now, obviously, with marriage equality and the automatic legal rights that marriage creates. I think we’ve come a long way, in terms of acknowledging same-sec relationships, and it is great and incredibly positive to see.
Do you sometimes get approached by people who have read your book?
There have definitely ben times when I’ve been out and someone’s come up to me and said, ‘Nicole Evans, oh my God, I’ve read your book, thank you so much for wriing it, I really appreciate it and really helped me when I went through the process.’ And that is just lovely to hear really nice feedback and goes towards that rewarding feeling.
Are there any goals for your firm this year?
One exciting thing is that we have partnered with Rainbow Families. That is going to generate more awareness in the LGBTQI community, in terms of being able to help families through the parenting process and separation process, ensuring that everyone is aware of their legal rights. As part of this we will do free seminars, including parenting ones and advice for same-sex couples on making babies. It’s so important to put this information out there in an accessible way. We get lots of phone calls and emails [asking for help on these topics]. I am always giving out some advice here and there.
You also appeared on Masterchef and Come Dine with Me. Is cooking still an avid outlet for you?
It’s funny, when we engaged a marketing firm for our website, they noticed a lot of search traffic comes from “Nicole Evans Masterchef”. I still love to cook, and it is now something I happily get to share with my own children. I think doing the intense work of our profession, it is great to come home at the end of the day, prepare something and then share it with family. My mum is a great cook, and my dad was also a chef, so there are lots of recipes and things I can pass on to my kids. I saw Nigella Lawson at a show in Sydney a few years ago and I just love her approach to cooking. She commented on the social nature of preparing meals for someone, and the feeling of being cooked for; how you know if someone wants you to stay if they offer you a cup of tea or coffee when you pop in.
